Coregistration

Dear all,

I have a basic question about coregistration in EEG forward modeling using
fsaverage brain, when I tried to align the EEG channels and fMRI by
mne.gui.coregistration, it seems to scale the head shape to fit the
electrode; but when I made the alignment using mne_analyze, it seems to
move and scale the electrodes to fit the head shape. So are these two way
the same?

Also, when I set fiducials in mne_analyze, the coordinates of
LAP/NASION/RAP will always have a 400 mm (which was definitly wrong)when I
clicked on where I want to set the fiducials on the head surface, and I
also am not able to type in the coordinates by hand, does it sound correct?

thanks,

Mengting
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Dear Mengting,

My response is to the following question only, the bit about scaling I will leave to others.

Also, when I set fiducials in mne_analyze, the coordinates of LAP/NASION/RAP will always have a 400 mm (which was definitly wrong)when I clicked on where I want to set the fiducials on the head surface, and I also am not able to type in the coordinates by hand, does it sound correct?

May I ask how you are running mne_analyze? Are you using a VPN or Remote Desktop connection from your PC to a central server? I have experienced the +/-400 mm issue when using VPN. I have rationalised that it is due to some OpenGL-call in mne_analyze not "appreciating" the fact that it's running through software emulation (MESA), which is the case for all remote-access scenarios (the rather esoteric VirtualGL being a notable exception).

mne.gui.coregistration() works fine through VPN/RDP, presumably because the underlying VTK implementation is OK with MESA.

I'd be curious to hear other's experiences regarding this, and comments on whether my rationale may hold.

Best,

Chris
Aarhus, Denmark
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hi,

I have a basic question about coregistration in EEG forward modeling using
fsaverage brain, when I tried to align the EEG channels and fMRI by
mne.gui.coregistration, it seems to scale the head shape to fit the
electrode;

this is correct.

but when I made the alignment using mne_analyze, it seems to move
and scale the electrodes to fit the head shape. So are these two way the
same?

mne_analyze does not support template brains. So it does not
scale anything but just find the best translation+rotation to fit the
scalp surface
to the electrode positions.

Alex

Just thinking about canonical coordinates and coregistration.
If you only have the standard EEG positions without e.g. exct polhemus
coordinates, and you don't have individual MRs.
One single coregistration should actually work for one type of sensor net,
right?

-- Denis

2014-10-30 9:21 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Gramfort <
alexandre.gramfort at telecom-paristech.fr>:

hi,

> I have a basic question about coregistration in EEG forward modeling
using
> fsaverage brain, when I tried to align the EEG channels and fMRI by
> mne.gui.coregistration, it seems to scale the head shape to fit the
> electrode;

this is correct.

> but when I made the alignment using mne_analyze, it seems to move
> and scale the electrodes to fit the head shape. So are these two way the
> same?

mne_analyze does not support template brains. So it does not
scale anything but just find the best translation+rotation to fit the
scalp surface
to the electrode positions.

Alex

> Also, when I set fiducials in mne_analyze, the coordinates of
> LAP/NASION/RAP will always have a 400 mm (which was definitly wrong)when
I
> clicked on where I want to set the fiducials on the head surface, and I
also
> am not able to type in the coordinates by hand, does it sound correct?
>
> thanks,
>
> Mengting
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mne_analysis mailing list
> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
> Mne_analysis Info Page
>
>
> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
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> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the
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> error
> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and
> properly
> dispose of the e-mail.
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Thanks, but then I have another question, after I co-registered using
mne.gui.coregistration, I need a 3-layer BEM for EEG forward modeling,
Usually I use mne_watershed_bem to create one with the infomation in
template brain, but I cannot find the any MRI files in the brain/subject
folder I scaled, thus I am not able to make a BEM using the brain I
coregistered, can you let me know how to use the co-registered brain to
make 3-layer BEM please?

Thanks,

Mengting

2014-10-30 4:21 GMT-04:00 Alexandre Gramfort <
alexandre.gramfort at telecom-paristech.fr>:

hi,

> I have a basic question about coregistration in EEG forward modeling
using
> fsaverage brain, when I tried to align the EEG channels and fMRI by
> mne.gui.coregistration, it seems to scale the head shape to fit the
> electrode;

this is correct.

> but when I made the alignment using mne_analyze, it seems to move
> and scale the electrodes to fit the head shape. So are these two way the
> same?

mne_analyze does not support template brains. So it does not
scale anything but just find the best translation+rotation to fit the
scalp surface
to the electrode positions.

Alex

> Also, when I set fiducials in mne_analyze, the coordinates of
> LAP/NASION/RAP will always have a 400 mm (which was definitly wrong)when
I
> clicked on where I want to set the fiducials on the head surface, and I
also
> am not able to type in the coordinates by hand, does it sound correct?
>
> thanks,
>
> Mengting
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mne_analysis mailing list
> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
> Mne_analysis Info Page
>
>
> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
it is
> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the
> e-mail
> contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
> HelpLine at
> MyComplianceReport.com: Compliance and Ethics Reporting . If the e-mail was sent to you
in
> error
> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and
> properly
> dispose of the e-mail.
>
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maybe Christian can comment but to me you should first compute the BEM
model for average brain and then scale it. So you call
mne_watershed_bem only once on your template.

HTH
Alex

Exactly, when you scale an MRI any bem file with a path corresponding to bem/{subject}-*-bem.fif should also be scaled. If you already scaled your brains you can create the bem for fsaverage and then use mne.scale_bem (http://martinos.org/mne/stable/generated/mne.scale_bem.html#mne.scale_bem) to scale the bem for your already existing scaled brains.

Christian

Thank you all for help!

I've tried to use mne.scale_bem to scale the 3 layer bem-sol file but not
successful, so I suppose that I need to first make a 3-layers -bem file,
then scale it using mne.scale_bem, and then use the scaled -bem file to
make a bem-sol file right?

In my study, I have only EEG data from biosemi and standard electrode
location files, and I want to do the source localization in a template
brain. When I use EEGlab or BESA, they all try to adjust/warp the standard
sensor locations to fit the template head shape. But in MNE, I need to
scale the head as well as all their related bem files and labels to
continue the forward modeling. It looks far more complicated than the
former way, I am just wondering is there any way similar (and maybe easier)
in MNE for EEG sensor alignment in a template brain?

Thanks so much.

Mengting

2014-10-31 10:25 GMT-04:00 Christian Brodbeck <christianbrodbeck at nyu.edu>:

Exactly, when you scale an MRI any bem file with a path corresponding to
bem/{subject}-*-bem.fif should also be scaled. If you already scaled your
brains you can create the bem for fsaverage and then use mne.scale_bem (
mne.scale_bem — MNE 1.6.0 documentation)
to scale the bem for your already existing scaled brains.

Christian

>
> maybe Christian can comment but to me you should first compute the BEM
> model for average brain and then scale it. So you call
> mne_watershed_bem only once on your template.
>
> HTH
> Alex
>
>> Thanks, but then I have another question, after I co-registered using
>> mne.gui.coregistration, I need a 3-layer BEM for EEG forward modeling,
>> Usually I use mne_watershed_bem to create one with the infomation in
>> template brain, but I cannot find the any MRI files in the brain/subject
>> folder I scaled, thus I am not able to make a BEM using the brain I
>> coregistered, can you let me know how to use the co-registered brain to
make
>> 3-layer BEM please?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mengting
>>
>> 2014-10-30 4:21 GMT-04:00 Alexandre Gramfort
>> <alexandre.gramfort at telecom-paristech.fr>:
>>
>>> hi,
>>>
>>>> I have a basic question about coregistration in EEG forward modeling
>>>> using
>>>> fsaverage brain, when I tried to align the EEG channels and fMRI by
>>>> mne.gui.coregistration, it seems to scale the head shape to fit the
>>>> electrode;
>>>
>>> this is correct.
>>>
>>>> but when I made the alignment using mne_analyze, it seems to move
>>>> and scale the electrodes to fit the head shape. So are these two way
the
>>>> same?
>>>
>>> mne_analyze does not support template brains. So it does not
>>> scale anything but just find the best translation+rotation to fit the
>>> scalp surface
>>> to the electrode positions.
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>> Also, when I set fiducials in mne_analyze, the coordinates of
>>>> LAP/NASION/RAP will always have a 400 mm (which was definitly
wrong)when
>>>> I
>>>> clicked on where I want to set the fiducials on the head surface, and
I
>>>> also
>>>> am not able to type in the coordinates by hand, does it sound correct?
>>>>
>>>> thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Mengting
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Mne_analysis mailing list
>>>> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
>>>> Mne_analysis Info Page
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
>>>> it is
>>>> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the
>>>> e-mail
>>>> contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
>>>> HelpLine at
>>>> MyComplianceReport.com: Compliance and Ethics Reporting . If the e-mail was sent to
you
>>>> in
>>>> error
>>>> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender
and
>>>> properly
>>>> dispose of the e-mail.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mne_analysis mailing list
>>> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
>>> Mne_analysis Info Page
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mne_analysis mailing list
>> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
>> Mne_analysis Info Page
>>
>>
>> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
it is
>> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the
>> e-mail
>> contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
>> HelpLine at
>> MyComplianceReport.com: Compliance and Ethics Reporting . If the e-mail was sent to you
in
>> error
>> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and
>> properly
>> dispose of the e-mail.
>>

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