temporal decoding: group analysis for mixed design

Hello MNE experts,

I have MEG data with two within-subject factors (each having 2 and 3
levels) and one between-subject factor (2 levels). I performed decoding
analysis on my MEG data by using the function " time_decod.fit". The
question is how to perform group analysis in subject's decoding data in MNE
(or outside MNE) for my mixed design (2 x 3 x 2 factorial design). Besides,
I have another dependent variable by using "predict_proba" function to get
the predicting probability. I want to test whether the distribution of
predicting probability differ according to my design. Whether the
difference of the distribution continues in time (e.g., 200-300ms after
stimulus onset) does not matter. Suggestions will be appreciated.
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Dear Yi-hui

Decoding is generally not really adapted for mix-designed, as the models
are traditionally fit at the single subject level - i.e. your model cannot
be easily optimized to look for an across-subject effect.

You can however compare the decoding scores across subjects/conditions as a
first approximation, and specify individual subjects' score as your random
variable.

For multifactorial within-subject effects, a simple approach can be to
implement RSA; we recently added this example in MNE:
https://mne-tools.github.io/stable/auto_examples/decoding/decoding_rsa.html

I will refer you to Kriegoskorte's RSA papers to see how you adapt this
analysis to your specific needs,

Kindest regards,

Jean-R?mi

Do be careful when doing group-level statistics via inferential statistics on accuracy scores -- Allefeld at al 2016 show some of the problems with the naive approach using things like t-tests or ANOVA. You could use a Binomial/Bernoulli regression model to get around some of points they raise without needing to use their minimum information statistic.

Best,

Phillip

While this paper raises an important subtlety (a significant t-test over
subjects' decoding accuracies indicates that there "are some people in the
population whose fMRI data carry information about the experimental
condition ? but" [...] not that there is "an effect that is typical in the
population"), my understanding is that this particular issue is not a
problem for non-parametric statistics.

Hi JR,

Is there a reference for that? i.e., that non-parametric stats aren't
subject to the same inferential issue as t-tests?

Thanks, Andy

Answering both proposals with the same word: Maybe.

'Non-parametric' doesn't mean 'without assumption' (not even 'without
distributional assumption') -- the assumptions just tend to be quite
different. Even the bootstrap has assumptions. You have to check whether
those assumptions conflict with the inherent boundedness of performance
scores. It's the boundedness of the scores that's the core of the problem.

There are several parametric tests that could model scores bounded on
[0,1] -- binomial GLMs, and perhaps even the usual t-test if the
variable is transformed appropriately (e.g. (x - 0.5) * 2 to move the
score to [-1, 1], followed by the Fisher transformation), converting AUC
to d', etc.

Phillip

Hi JR,

Is there a reference for that? i.e., that non-parametric stats aren't
subject to the same inferential issue as t-tests?

Thanks, Andy

    While this paper raises an important subtlety (a significant t-test
    over subjects' decoding accuracies indicates that there "are some
    people in the population whose fMRI data carry information about the
    experimental condition ? but" [...] not that there is "an effect
    that is typical in the population"), my understanding is that this
    particular issue is not a problem for non-parametric statistics.

        Do be careful when doing group-level statistics via inferential
        statistics on accuracy scores -- Allefeld at al 2016 show some
        of the problems with the naive approach using things like
        t-tests or ANOVA. You could use a Binomial/Bernoulli regression
        model to get around some of points they raise without needing to
        use their minimum information statistic.

        Best,

        Phillip

        Dear Yi-hui

        Decoding is generally not really adapted for mix-designed, as
        the models are traditionally fit at the single subject level -
        i.e. your model cannot be easily optimized to look for an
        across-subject effect.

        You can however compare the decoding scores across
        subjects/conditions as a first approximation, and specify
        individual subjects' score as your random variable.

        For multifactorial within-subject effects, a simple approach
        can be to implement RSA; we recently added this example in MNE:
        https://mne-tools.github.io/stable/auto_examples/decoding/decoding_rsa.html

        I will refer you to Kriegoskorte's RSA papers to see how you
        adapt this analysis to your specific needs,

        Kindest regards,

        Jean-R?mi

            Hello MNE experts,

            I have MEG data with two within-subject factors (each
            having 2 and 3 levels) and one between-subject factor (2
            levels). I performed decoding analysis on my MEG data by
            using the function " time_decod.fit". The question is how
            to perform group analysis in subject's decoding data in
            MNE (or outside MNE) for my mixed design (2 x 3 x 2
            factorial design). Besides, I have another dependent
            variable by using "predict_proba" function to get the
            predicting probability. I want to test whether the
            distribution of predicting probability differ according to
            my design. Whether the difference of the distribution
            continues in time (e.g., 200-300ms after stimulus onset)
            does not matter. Suggestions will be appreciated.
               
            _______________________________________________
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            dispose of the e-mail.

        _______________________________________________
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        dispose of the e-mail.

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--
Andrew R. Dykstra, PhD
Department of Neurology
Ruprecht-Karls-Universit?t Heidelberg
andrew.dykstra at med.uni-heidelberg.de
<mailto:andrew.dykstra at med.uni-heidelberg.de>
Europe: +49.157.7028.2162, North America: +1.786.263.9742

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Answering both proposals with the same word: Maybe.

'Non-parametric' doesn't mean 'without assumption' (not even 'without
distributional assumption') -- the assumptions just tend to be quite
different. Even the bootstrap has assumptions. You have to check whether
those assumptions conflict with the inherent boundedness of performance
scores. It's the boundedness of the scores that's the core of the problem.

You're right, I should have been more precise. In my understanding, the
non-parametric tests that are commonly encountered in second-level decoding
analyses such as permutation, wilcoxon, mann whitney do not make
assumptions on the distribution across subjects that are impacted by the
issue raised by the authors (i.e. that information is never negative, and
thus that the distribution is bounded).

JR

There are several parametric tests that could model scores bounded on
[0,1] -- binomial GLMs, and perhaps even the usual t-test if the
variable is transformed appropriately (e.g. (x - 0.5) * 2 to move the
score to [-1, 1], followed by the Fisher transformation), converting AUC
to d', etc.

Phillip

> Hi JR,
>
> Is there a reference for that? i.e., that non-parametric stats aren't
> subject to the same inferential issue as t-tests?
>
> Thanks, Andy
>
>
> While this paper raises an important subtlety (a significant t-test
> over subjects' decoding accuracies indicates that there "are some
> people in the population whose fMRI data carry information about the
> experimental condition ? but" [...] not that there is "an effect
> that is typical in the population"), my understanding is that this
> particular issue is not a problem for non-parametric statistics.
>
>
> Do be careful when doing group-level statistics via inferential
> statistics on accuracy scores -- Allefeld at al 2016 show some
> of the problems with the naive approach using things like
> t-tests or ANOVA. You could use a Binomial/Bernoulli regression
> model to get around some of points they raise without needing to
> use their minimum information statistic.
>
> Best,
>
> Phillip
>
>
>> Dear Yi-hui
>>
>> Decoding is generally not really adapted for mix-designed, as
>> the models are traditionally fit at the single subject level -
>> i.e. your model cannot be easily optimized to look for an
>> across-subject effect.
>>
>> You can however compare the decoding scores across
>> subjects/conditions as a first approximation, and specify
>> individual subjects' score as your random variable.
>>
>> For multifactorial within-subject effects, a simple approach
>> can be to implement RSA; we recently added this example in MNE:
>> https://mne-tools.github.io/stable/auto_examples/decoding/
decoding_rsa.html
>>
>> I will refer you to Kriegoskorte's RSA papers to see how you
>> adapt this analysis to your specific needs,
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>> Jean-R?mi
>>
>>
>> Hello MNE experts,
>>
>> I have MEG data with two within-subject factors (each
>> having 2 and 3 levels) and one between-subject factor (2
>> levels). I performed decoding analysis on my MEG data by
>> using the function " time_decod.fit". The question is how
>> to perform group analysis in subject's decoding data in
>> MNE (or outside MNE) for my mixed design (2 x 3 x 2
>> factorial design). Besides, I have another dependent
>> variable by using "predict_proba" function to get the
>> predicting probability. I want to test whether the
>> distribution of predicting probability differ according to
>> my design. Whether the difference of the distribution
>> continues in time (e.g., 200-300ms after stimulus onset)
>> does not matter. Suggestions will be appreciated.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mne_analysis mailing list
>> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
>> <mailto:Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu>
>> https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/mne_
analysis
>>
>>
>> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the
>> person to whom it is
>> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in
>> error and the e-mail
>> contains patient information, please contact the Partners
>> Compliance HelpLine at
>> http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was
>> sent to you in error
>> but does not contain patient information, please contact
>> the sender and properly
>> dispose of the e-mail.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mne_analysis mailing list
>> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
>> <mailto:Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu>
>> https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/mne_analysis
>>
>>
>> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person
to whom it is
>> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error
and the e-mail
>> contains patient information, please contact the Partners
Compliance HelpLine at
>> http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was
sent to you in error
>> but does not contain patient information, please contact the
sender and properly
>> dispose of the e-mail.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mne_analysis mailing list
> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
> <mailto:Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu>
> https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/mne_analysis
>
>
> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to
> whom it is
> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and
> the e-mail
> contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
> HelpLine at
> http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to
> you in error
> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender
> and properly
> dispose of the e-mail.
>
> --
> Andrew R. Dykstra, PhD
> Department of Neurology
> Ruprecht-Karls-Universit?t Heidelberg
> andrew.dykstra at med.uni-heidelberg.de
> <mailto:andrew.dykstra at med.uni-heidelberg.de>
> Europe: +49.157.7028.2162, North America: +1.786.263.9742
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mne_analysis mailing list
> Mne_analysis at nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
> https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/mne_analysis
>
>
> The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
it is
> addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the
e-mail
> contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
HelpLine at
> http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to you
in error
> but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and
properly
> dispose of the e-mail.
>

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e-mail
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